Collegiate

All right, we're back. I'm joined as always with John Marcus, and this is the Magnus and Marcus Podcast. Unfortunately, for the first episode in, I don't know, three or

four, we aren't sitting next to each other at a coffee shop. Yeah, bizarre. But don't worry, I have a, a cup of coffee right now. Actually cold brew. So

we're well-caffeinated, at least up here in Portland. You guys are always caffeinated in Portland. Oh. Yes. I like, I like it. I like it. Um, so this, this week

we decided to take on a little bit of a different topic. Um,

w- what does it really take to make it post-collegiately? And, you know, in talking off interview before this, we kind of jokingly- Hm ... called this the dream crushing

episode. Okay. Yes. No doubt. It... Yeah. And that's not, I don't see that as a negative, negative thing. I think it's more of

a reality of what you have, college athletes, um, what they think professional track and field is gonna be like, or post-collegiate track and field. Mm-hmm. And you mentioned briefly

that kind of, you know, going into 2016, and, uh, Olympic year, and the craziness that that brings, and the expectations that that brings, that makes it, uh, this, this

mismatch between what's expected and what is reality, uh, much, much higher. So, um, we, we both live in that world of both college and, and post-collegiate, uh, sports, which

I think is, gives us a nice entertaining view because we get to see it from the college athlete, who's kind of this naive, uh, enthusiastic, um, dreamer. And then

we get to see what the, the reality is with our post-collegiate athletes and all that, that we're, uh, we're going into. So, um, why don't you s- you start

us off, John?

Yeah. I think,

you know,

there, there's, we're, we're crushing dreams, or actually we're just, we're giving people a reality check. There we go. We just wanna check 'em and just let 'em know, "Hey,

this is what it's like." And it's honestly a really scary and harsh world. I mean, Steve and I, you know, we recruit two types of athletes. You know, collegiate

athletes, obviously for our collegiate teams, and then post-collegiate athletes. I always tell post-graduates just like, "I don't recruit post-collegiately," because I spend my professional life as a college coach

recruiting high school- ... um, athletes. So I don't have time or the desire to recruit, you know, 22, 23-something year old men and women to convince them to come,

move to Oregon, move to Portland, and to work with me. I mean, if you want to, great. You know, and I think Steve has the same tenor, because that

means you've done your homework as an adult, and you've figured out where might be a good fit for you. Um, you know, and, uh, just coming off the tail

of this kind of quote unquote recruiting season for the post-collegiate athlete, where we're soliciting, uh, or getting solicited with a lot of calls, or emails, or considerations, um, as

people are finishing up their collegiate eligibility. You know, the reality is everybody wants to move from infrastructure to infrastructure, and honestly, that's not, you know, not the reality in

place, save for the 1% few that get that big time, you know, or even little time contract deal, um, fresh out of college. I mean, honestly,

you have to look at yourself as a starving artist, and you know, it, what, what makes you different or more special or more talented than, you know, the person

in a s- very similar conference to you, who qualified, you know, ran, uh, to NCAA championships, ran school records, this and that. I mean, I remind people, in the

post-collegiate world, it's a highly, highly competitive endeavor. Every single person on that line is an NCAA champion or NAIA champion. You know, conference record holder, conference ch- multiple time

conference champion, All-American, multiple time All-American, school record holder. That's every single person on the line. You know, i- so to think that just because you're in whatever conference, and

you won four years your conference title in the 1500, to make... that makes you special or unique, you know, is not nece- necessarily the case. Uh, you know, I

kinda equate it to,

um, this mentality where you post-collegiately have to have Power Five conference talent, but a mid-major mindset. And if you have that mid-major mindset, where you're that blue collar, scrapping

for every, you know, um,

advantage, just trying to get here, hustle yourself there. You know, very relentless. Then you have a shot. But the reality, I think, sometimes... Or the ideal versus the reality

sometimes gets lost, because you have all this infrastructure laid out in college. Your travel's taken care of. You have per diem. Your hotel's not a big deal. You can

get on a track whenever you want. You have weight rooms, you know, training table. You got athletic trainers. You know, some programs have nutritionists and sports psychologists. You have

your bills taken care of with scholarships. Da, da, da, da. Like, it's a pretty cush deal. And then you go on to this harsh and scary reality where not

a whole lot of people care how fast you ran or what titles you got, except for a select few. And then you get to like July, early August, and

all of a sudden you don't get that big shoe contract or even that small shoe contract gig. And now you, now you're left holding the bag and trying to

figure out, "How do I get this done? How do I still train, live, compete, eat, have a roof over my head and clothes on my back, and be faster

and more competitive than I've ever been?" And that's a really tall order. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I think you, uh, hit the nail on the head there, is that

if you look at post-collegiately, like everyone's good. So ev- everyone who comes out is used to being the number one guy on their team, by far, right? Mm-hmm. Everyone's

used to being the top dog who had the talent, and work ethic, and all that stuff. And when you get into this distilled world of post-collegiate running, like that's

everybody. That means if you, if you're lucky enough to go to some awesome group, like every single other person you're training with had that same experience. And I think

that, that is something that's overlooked, and can sometimes be humbling. Um, and if you're not ready for it, humbling in a very, very interesting way. Um, but I, I

think that one of the points you made is that part of making that self, uh, or that, that transition is be- being self-aware of what you are and what

you bring to the table. Okay? Because I think, I think there's a big misnomer on, on expectations, whether it's from contracts you're getting, support you're getting. Um, honestly, for

the vast majority of people, the support you got in college will be so- far superior than the support you get post-collegiately. I mean, that, that's true for almost any,

any program whatsoever. Um,

so, you know, I think a lot of times what you see as one of the biggest mistakes people make is they, they come out of college and ask the

question of, what do I get? Okay? And it's, it's this, this concept of like, well, do I get travel covered? Do I get this contract? Do I get this

gear? Do I get, you know, a massage or whatever. And they get caught up in like, well, at this place I get this, at this place I get this,

and yes, those are all good things, but instead you have to switch the mindset. It's not what you can get. It's what, what can you actually do? Like- Yes.

Without- ... what, what place can you go that will fit with your personality, your environment, your training, that can help get you to that next level, okay? Because if

you look at,

if you look at, uh, I don't know, if you look at the Africans, for example. Mm-hmm. Or if you look at, um... Or if you look at, again, drugs

excluded, the Jamaican sprinting. Like, they don't train in the best places all the time. They don't have all the massage and extra stuff, and they're- Right ... uh, uh,

and I think we get caught up into thinking that these are the keys to success, this, this little 2% here, when we forget that, you know, what we do

in this 95%, 98% is what actually should matter.

Right. I think,

you know, that's the wrong question to ask. What, what do I get for what I've already done? Yes. The thing, like I tell, you know, people who are successful

post-collegiately, they have to understand, or the people who have, you know, a, you know, opportunities to have a, you know, good contract or solid contract, or even a contract,

period, coming out of college, they've done something that's blown people's minds. You have... Uh, so think about this. Like, what have you done that's blown people's minds? Alan Webb

had, you know, this huge contract because as a high school kid he ran 353. That blew everyone's mind. Yep. You know? Christian Serratos has a nice deal with Adidas

because here's this mid-major guy from Montana State who's going up against Edward Cheserek, and has a legit shot to win. He ran 355 for the mile indoors. That blew

people's minds. And so it's not to say, like,

that, you know, he might be the best miler coming out of the NCAA. He, you know, the guy's never even won an NCAA title, so to speak. But from

what position he was in and the space he was in the year before, you know, getting beat indoors in the Big Sky Mile to the year, next year, h-

almost winning the NCAA title and running a 355 mile, that blew people's minds. You know? It, and so you have to understand, when everyone's very, very good, and everyone's

very talented and capable, you have to take the posture

that what you're doing is trying to blow people's minds. And if you don't take that type of posture with your training or the environment you're going into, then you're

just another run-of-the-mill, you know, post-collegiate runner, and you get a, you know, maybe get some accoutrements and posts on social media, "Look at me in all my free gear."

But you know what? That gets real trite real quick. Because,

you know, it's just stuff. And some of the best runners, and some of the most ferocious competitors I know are people who just do it for the pure love

of it, and who are, you know, just artists who are putting a lot of passion into things. You know, a great example is Mark Wetzel, formerly now of Brooks.

You know, Wizzo, he's been with O- OTC, then he was unsigned for many years. And then he was signed by Brooks, and now he just got his contract dropped

by Brooks. You know, it's not that Mark Wetzel is not really, really good. The guy's been to every single US, um, championship he's tried out for in a seven,

eight-year span, or something crazy like that, you know? But Wizzo does it because Wizzo's passionate as an artist about, you know, just competing and achieving at the highest level.

And for him, he's really thankful that he even gets a little bit of a deal here or there, or that he had that opportunity to be taken care of

for a couple years. 'Cause he gets it. There was an era when he was with nobody before he got picked up by Brooks, and he really had to question

whether, you know, he really wanted to do that, and he... The resounding answer was yes, because again, I think the artist type mentality is the one that, um,

ends up having longevity in this sport. Because you're gonna only have a deal, if you do get one, for a couple years. And, you know, Steve and I know,

having w- having worked on, you know, the post-collegiate side here, is those deals are short and harsh, and there's contract reductions laced with them. There's very, very minimal base

amount of guaranteed Pay, you know. I mean, gear is the easiest thing in the world to get, I tell people. I go, "We, we can get on the phone

and call a sports marketing rep from any company, and it's like, 'Hey, here's some gear.' Easy. Life's easy." Like, oh, that's cool. What... You know, what's the more important

thing is the people component, the interpersonal component. Is the coach and the environment that you're working with, does that suit your personality and your demeanor? Do they know you?

Do they take the time to get to know you, the person, and bond with you? And I think sometimes it's so overlooked for the other material accoutrements that people

think they need, or the resources that they think they need, have to have to be successful. Because we're just, you know, keeping up with the Joneses here of like,

"Oh, well, they have altitude tents. I need an altitude tent to be successful. Oh, that's $5,000. I don't know." It's like, no, come on, seriously. Let's, let's, let's be

real here.

Yeah. That's very true. There, there's a big component of, of trying to keep up with everyone, and keeping up with the latest fad, and spending money to spend money,

which I- Mm-hmm ... I think is, you know, a detriment to your development in the sport. Um- Yeah ... but I, I think that's a great point is, is

that starving artist mindset, like, is the one you have to adopt. Because for the vast majority of people in our sport, I mean, that's what it is. Mm-hmm. I

mean, that's the reality of it. And even if you get that big contract, right? You're, you're only gonna have it for a couple years. I mean, the, the window

of opportunity for those contracts is very small. And if an injury happens or something else happens,

hell, even, you know, in the past, there's been y- you know, people reduced for pregnancies and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, it's a vicious, vicious world. And that

contract doesn't, doesn't hold up that long. So if you're, if you're looking at it as this like, "Oh, I'm, I'm set. I'm gonna take this big contract with this,

um, this, you know, all this stuff that comes with it, and this is gonna be the key," while forgetting the important parts of the sport, while forgetting why you're

doing it in the first place, or forgetting, "Well, is this the best fit for me athletically?" Mm-hmm. Then you're missing, you're missing the boat. And I think, um, I

think that's one of the central mistakes that you see people come out of college making sometimes- ... is they're like, "Okay, here I am. I've done this. Where's my

money, and where are you gonna stick me?" Right? Right. I mean, I was, uh... I, I ran into, uh, Leah O'Connor's mom at, at, at dinner one time, or

lunch at, in Eugene. And we were talking, and I was like- ... the best thing that she could have done right now is stick with her current college coach,

'cause she seems really,

really good in that environment. Mm-hmm. And with another steeple partner like Nicole Bush out there, I was like, it makes sense, you know, in talking to them. And I

think that's something that's overlooked is, like, that environmental component is... A- and that could be with your college coach, it could be somewhere new. It doesn't matter, but it's

like that environmental component, and that clicking in with the coach and the group is probably the biggest factor that I think people should look for. But often they, they

kind of neglect for the sexier stuff.

Yeah. And I think sometimes, though, that's a product, you know, maybe a product of youth or a product of- Yeah ... uh, inexperience, really, is you get out of

this collegiate system that's so well organized. I mean, USATF, um, you know, we always joke that we, you know, America has the best farming, farm team system in the

world, and it's the collegiate system, and rightfully so. You have, you know, Canadians, international students who come here and get a lot of, you know, very good development with

a lot of very knowledgeable, good coaches in the collegiate ranks, and amazing resources. But then, you know, you transition out of that, and you really have to look at

where is and what is the best fit. Sometimes it is with your college coach, but sometimes it's really not. And it's not a knock on any college coach, but

you know, Chris Linski's a great example. You know, Chris is a good friend, and his first year when he was a collegiate, or out, or out of being a,

a collegiate in the post-collegiate world, he still was living in Madison, Wisconsin, and he was still hanging out with all of his friends on the Wisconsin team, who were

still college guys. And the, you know, l- degree of competitiveness for the NCAA versus the US or world stage is this big canyon of difference. And but he was

still doing things like going to Tuesday night pub trivia. Hanging out with the guys on the weekend playing beer pong. You know, and Jerry Schumacher finally said, "Chris, like,

you have to stop living like a college kid. You can't do that. You're trying to be a professional world class runner. And you can get away with it at

the NCAA level doing that 'cause you're super talented, but guess what? Everyone in the post-collegiate world is sup- if not more talented, just as talented than you are, and

you can't afford, you know, to d- live like this anymore." And it was a crystallizing moment for Slinski because, you know, he didn't have the best first year out

of college, even though there was no im- necessary environmental transition. It had to be a mind shift transition. And so I always caution people who stay in their college

scene and in college environment with their college coach, you know, just because it worked in college doesn't mean it's gonna work post-collegiately, because you have to make that environmental

shift in your own mind. And sometimes that just takes a physical removal from the environment, and going to a whole new place to, to get away from that. 'Cause

the pull of all your college buddies- ... or friends or the lifestyle is sometimes too great and too enticing, especially in the most vital part of the year, which

is

the foundational months of September, October, November, and December. So You know, you gotta straddle that reality as well, and I don't think people... Some- people just, you know, we

want to go with what works. We want, oh, this is certain, is gonna work. And really the way you know it's gonna work is not because it worked in

the past, but because the people you're with have a very, you know, um, open mindset. They're w- willing to create a dialogue. I mean, uh,

you know, with the athlete. Like, I always encourage athletes, like it's so, it's so much your career, and your, you know, ambitions that my job as a coach or

whatever type of role I have in your support network is to help guide you to the direction you wanna go, and be that GPS on that, um, on that

map for you to, a- and the markers about yep, yep, mm-hmm, you're right. You're on the right path. This is it. Or whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't be doing

this anymore. You gotta stop. Like, you can't be going out and hanging out with, you know, and going to concerts every weekend, and feel, and know, like you can

get away with it, and still train at a very high level. Um, so I think sometimes too, that has to be paid homage to about that harsh reality. Yeah.

You, you know, one of the things I found in dealing with a lot of young post-collegiate's coming out is that they really lack this,

um... And it's understandable, because they're young and don't know what to do about it, is they really lack this, like mentorship of what it actually means, right? Mm-hmm. Um,

I, I mean, I remember

going out when I was in grad school and training with Alan Webb, and like it, I, I thought I knew what hard training was and commitment was, 'cause I

mean, I ran up to 120 miles a week in, in, in college, right? So I'd, I'd done the grind thing, and didn't really go out, and all that stuff.

But it really took it to another level, the professionalism that existed within Alan's kind of, uh, environment, and what, what that consisted of, um, to extreme levels, which sometimes

would be good, sometimes would be bad. But, um, and then in dealing with a couple newer post-collegiate's that I, I've been working with lately is, is that, you know,

I think there's this real need for what does that encapsulate? Like, what does that, what does that mean? And I think that's one of the advantages you have of,

of going to a, a group setting where there's others to help guide you, if they're willing to do that. But I think in the... If I was a, a

college kid coming out of the NCAA system, like I would reach out to friends and mentors, um, who had gone through it the year or two before, or before

or beyond that, to get a understanding of what the expectations of, of a professional athlete are. Because I think that just as when you go from high school to

college, you have to adapt and- Mm-hmm ... mold into this collegiate system of what it takes to be successful in this environment. I think the same thing happens, has

to happen, as you said, from college to pro. And unlike the college system, where you go to a college team that,

let's say is good, or has the right environment, like you naturally mold into it based on what others are doing. When you go post-collegiately, unless you go into one

of these few clubs, is, is that, that natural mold doesn't occur.

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the,

the, the transition phase is a lot longer, I think post-collegiate, um, because you're so much more on your own. And, you know, you don't have the, again, the infrastructure

where you can just walk around campus, and everything you need is right there. You know, you may have to drive on your own to the better running trails to

run the softer surface r- for your recovery runs, rather than running on the roads, depending where you're living. You know, you may have to, you have to schedule your

appointments with your massage therapist, or your chiro. You know, or, or your, um, you know, get y- to get your bow work done, or this or that. Like, you

have to, you know, wait for gym time whenever you have that gym time available, depending on what the situation is. You know, or even getting on a track. Like

just getting on a track to do a track workout can sometimes be a huge bar- barrier and obstacle. Uh, you know, if you're, if you're in a town that

doesn't have a lot of public tracks. Because a lot of city or a lot of school, whether they're high school or college tracks, they don't let people from the

outside on who, um, are, aren't associated with that scholastic team. And even alumnis. Like I know Leo Manzano, right? You know, Texas alum. The guy can't work out on

the Texas track, because it's just the rules in place by the university, even though, you know, he's silver medalist, like, you know, one of the best middle distance runners

this country has. So, you know, to, to think that it's all just peaches and cream, and even if you go to the, the, the more established groups, like, um,

with a lot more backing and funding, um, like the Nike groups or, you know, New Y- or New Jersey/New York, uh, Track Club. You know, with Gags and, um,

you know, even Brooks Beast over there in Seattle. It's like, you know, it's not what you think it is a lot of times. And more often than not, w-

I see, and I c- talk to, and counsel the 25, 26-year-old athlete who's been doing it for a couple years, who thought they were going to the best situation,

who was training at a high level, but then got hurt, or then, or maybe really was training really well in workouts, but just never was able to put it

together on race day for whatever reasons. I mean, and two, the reality is a lot of times your coach is not gonna be there on race day. If, especially

if you're in a groups type setting, the coach may be training, you know, 10 to 15 or 20 people, and on any given weekend, it's like, "Hey. All right,

you're going to Los Angeles for a race. You're going to Portland. You're going over to New York. Okay, you're going to Boston. All right, guys, go get... G- good

luck." Or you're going to Canada. I mean, the coach is not necessarily gonna make that trip and hold your hand, so you have to get on the plane, navigate

your hotel situation, all this type of stuff. And this is sometimes where an agent comes into play, if you, you know, if it warrants having one.

But to help navigate and set that itinerary for you. But nine times out of 10, you're the one doing it on your own. So if you're not highly self-reliant,

if you can't just figure it out as you go, if you don't have that mentality, it's gonna be a really tough transition into the post-collegiate world. Yeah. That, that

self-reliance is probably the biggest factor there is. I mean- Yeah ... not, not to mention just going to domestic meets. Think about getting dropped off or flying over to

Europe and- Mm-hmm ... having to find some random, random apartment in, in Belgium, for example, and, and you're on your own and just doing it, right? Right. I mean,

that, that is, that is the norm a lot of times. Like- Mm-hmm ... even if the agent sets up the flights and the hotels and stuff like that, it's

still you traveling, and hopefully you're, you know, you find your group over there, and you, you get things organized. But it's still you alone and- Yeah ... another country

trying to figure it out. And to- Yeah. Yeah, and that's y- you know, that's, that's a huge component that I think sometimes is missed, you know, even on the,

on the college side of things. Like, that's one of the ways why we, uh, I tend not to, you know, over, uh, over coddle my college kids. And because

it's, it's a tendency of the collegiate system to have everything ready and set, and you're so used to it. But if they're the ones who are gonna go on

and compete post-collegiately, it's a detriment to them. So developing that independence and that self-reliance is probably the biggest thing you have. Mm. Because at the end of the day

on, on the post-collegiate side, it's, it's your career. You're the one who's gotta care the most about it, okay? Obviously, you hope your coach and your supports team, and

if you're in the right place, cares. But you're the one who's most invested, so you have to look after it and protect it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very, very wise words.

And, you know, and how you s- create a support network for your career is also different, too. It's like when you're in college, you know, if you're going to,

you know, University of Arizona, you... it's just all University of Arizona, where you have all these people in place, these employees of the university, the coach, the athletic trainer,

the sports and conditioning person, the sports psychologist, sports nutritionist, you know, the director of ops, the da, da, da, da. That's, that's your support team. You don't have to

decide. They already have it set up. Post-collegiately though, you have to make your support network. So, you know, your coach, your agent, your own PT, your own chiro, your

own massage therapist. Like, you have to go out and find those people, and yeah, you have people referred to you by the coach or the agent if you have

an agent. Um, but at the same time too, we have to have a different view about what people's roles are. Like, you know, m- nine times out of 10,

people have this narrow scope about what the coach is, and the coach is just the person that, you know, prepares you physically, mentally, and emotionally for it. But there's

gonna be other people who you can lean on for support, whether they're other coaches themselves who may be someone you lean on for, "Hey, maybe I'll call him, and

if I'm really frustrated about things in life, I can talk to this person." You know, maybe that's your college coach, or maybe your high school coach, or maybe another

person you met on the, the circuit, you know, years back, or another athlete. You know, so you ha- you can develop a much more robust support network as a

post-collegiate than you could collegiately because you were wedded to the personnel, um, tied to that institution. So, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, without doubt.

And it takes, same thing, it takes a village to, you know, get an athlete healthy and happy and ready to kick butt at the starting line. Yeah. Um- And,

and, and, you know, I think that's the great thing about, uh, about running post-collegiately that I think you see is that it is kind of a nice community, right?

Mm. 'Cause you, you see the same people at different meets. You see the same people at internationally. Um, and there's a lot of support if you let yourself into

it. Right. And one of the things I've seen is that people who embrace that, like really take advantage of, of, of leaning on those who have done it for

years, like, you know, who have been on the European circuit for the last five, six years, right? Yeah. And have d- done it all. Like, if you ingrain yourself

in that and get to know those people, then it, it helps your career so much more. And I've seen it the opposite, where sometimes people get... you know, go

from this college environment of like, well, it was, you know, University of X versus the world. And like, we just did our own thing, and, and that's how I'm

gonna continue this, is... And they kinda do their own thing in, in, on the, on the post-collegiate side. I think they run into problems once they don't know what

to do, right? Mm-hmm. And it's, it's why I always tell someone coming out is like, "Embrace others." Yes. Embr- it's like the, the,

the running world is such a small world that almost everyone, as long as you're nice, like you'll get along with people. And you're gonna... And people will be willing

to help you, even competitors, if you, you know, are appreciative of it, of it. But yeah. Yeah, I think the, you know, the, you know, wisest examples, um, you

know, we can use about athletes who have really embraced others and who have a good, you know, good rapport with a lot of their fellow competitors on the circuit

are, you know, two guys we know really well, um, Tommy Schmitz and Will Lear. You know, you look at Tommy, like Tommy is just a great human being, and,

you know, Steve coaches Tommy. But Tommy just rolls arou- essentially just rolls around, you know, the US circuit and the European circuit with no real plan, but he just

is so known by so many people, and he has that rapport with so many people. He can just say, "Hey, you got an extra bed? You got an extra

like couch? You know, can I hop here? Can I do this?" Like, you know, he doesn't really have any plan, so to speak, when he goes To a meet,

sometimes I even have to remind Tommy for meets that I put on, "Hey, Tommy, you need to declare if you're actually running the meet. That's why." He's like, "Oh,

okay." But it's... Instead of ge- getting upset at Tommy, I just know that's Tommy. Um, but he's someone that, you know, has a c- capacity to also just link

up with other people for workouts, or long runs, or easy runs. Like, if he's up in altitude or, you know, down in Houston, or over in California, he just

finds people to get along with. Same thing with Will Lear. You know, Will's kind of been everywhere as well, Michigan, Flagstaff, U- you know, uh, Southern California, back to

Eugene, and he's just found a way to maintain those relationships and just be able to integrate with what o- other people are doing. And as long as it makes

sense for what he's doing, he'll talk to his coach, Warhurst, uh, Ron Warhurst, about, "Hey, here's what OTC is doing up in Flag today. What do you think? We

need to pop in with them, or oh, man, I'll just go for an easy run with, you know, these guys," um, "while I'm down in Eugene or wherever else."

And it's allowed them the capacity to continue to strengthen relationships, but also continue to train and continue to thrive as they're getting into their early 30s, when most people

are getting out of the sport at that age. So they're, they're wise people in that regards to look to as role models about how to really, um, create this

relationship where you're very open and embracing others, rather than this closed off, fixed mindset of me against the world, you know? Exactly. Exactly. There's some good lessons to le-

learn there, even though Tommy's kinda crazy. He's figuring out his way of the world, and, and how to, how to make it work. I'm always impressed by what he

pulls off. So

Yeah. I mean, one thing I wanted to talk about, and I always talk about with people is, like, this is a good one, Steve, and I'll pose a question

to you, and then I'll piggyback on what you have to say, is how do you know or when should an athlete solicit the services of an agent? I think

that one's one we should talk about, because you need to know when do, when an agent's and why an agent exists, and how an agent can be of value

to you. But, you know, you just don't get an agent just to say you have an agent.

Exactly. No, I, I deal with this one a lot, because I deal with athletes a lot who are on that edge of that bubble of, "Well, do I need

an agent, or do I not in, need an agent?" And, um, I mean, Tommy's a great example who's, he's had an agent, he's not had an agent. Okay? Um,

because he's, he's figured out the system of how to get places that he needs to go. And what I always say is agent is good for a couple things.

Okay? First, it's good for, for getting you into meets at, at certain levels, right? Mm-hmm. At certain levels, you'll probably need an agent to get into meets. Um, B,

they're, they're valuable for negotiating shoe company contracts, right? So if you're at the level that you need a, a contract negotiated, then obviously that makes sense. Um, those are

my two, my two big things. Obviously they, they do other things beyond that. But what I look at is, is with, with athletes, I tell them, "What can you

do on your own?" Okay? "And would you be enhanced if you had an agent?" Mm. Okay? So I always give the example of, of Tommy a couple years ago,

set up his entire European season circuit by himself, right? Um, and set up the, uh, and just emailed people, and got into meets, and got into good meets that

he wanted to get on that kind of second level circuit, and he didn't need an agent to do that. Okay? And he wasn't running times at, at, to need

someone to negotiate any sort of contract or make con- contact with anyone like that to be able to do that. Okay? So in those regards, I think those are

the two biggest things. I think most people have this misnomer, misnomer where they think, "Oh, I need an agent to make it." Okay? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You need an agent

if you need to make that next step of what you can't do on your own. Right. If you can't... If you're getting to the level where you're able to

get a larger contract, let's say,

and then okay, time to look at an agent. Right? But if you're at the level where you don't have that ability yet or haven't done that kind of blow,

blow someone's mind, then, then I think if you can handle it yourself, or your coach, or whoever it is, then I think you're okay. The other aspect I look

at too is

are you willing or are you known to do pacing?

Okay? 'Cause I think that's another big component is if you have some sort of reputation as a, as a rabbit,

then an agent comes in handy for getting you rabbit jobs that pay very well at the next level. Mm-hmm. Um, so th- I think that's another component of that

I think is sometimes, sometimes, uh, misjudged.

I agree. Yeah. I, I always tell people,

you know, "You definitely need an agent if you're trying to run in Diamond League races." Yep. Period. You know? I- if you're that caliber of athlete, you need an

agent. So if you, you know, are gonna try to get into a Paris, or a Rome, or a Prefontaine Classic, that's where an agent comes into play, without a

doubt. Um,

you know, and it, it's... Two, agents w- They're, they have jobs, they have livelihoods, and they want to, they need to pay attention to people who are bigger ticket

people, who are gonna get that very large shoe company, um, deal, who are gonna get, who warrant appearance fees for races, who are trying to get into diamond leagues,

who are gonna get big bonuses on times from their shoe companies. So, you know, you have to remember that too. It's like y- agents just aren't here just to

be here, and for you to use at your disposal because y- you think you need one. They, they assess, just as us coaches who coach post-collegiates assess, do I

really want to represent this person? Do I really want... You know, is this person gonna be worth my time? You know, are they gonna be someone of value that's

gonna generate value for my repertoire of athletes that are with, under my representation? So, you know, I think too, it's like you don't want to waste people's time. Yes.

Just because you have an agent, and that validates you have an agent, so you're, I guess now you're a professional because you have an agent. Great, you know. But

a lot of times I play agent as a post-collegiate coach, and a meet director with athletes I work with, getting them the pacing gigs. You know, emailing people up

at Harry Jerome and saying, "Hey, I get it. I'm a meet director. Do you guys need a pacer? This person's gonna be up there. They would prefer to race,

but if they can't get in and race, they're happy to pace instead." You know, um, I think any time you're trying to,

you know, maybe race off the North American continent, especially if you're younger, you might want to think about an agent. I mean, Tommy obviously already had a way of

navigating around Europe, and kind of knew where the good races are. But most kids out of, you know, college have no idea about the, the a- the diamond league,

and the, you know, domestic European, um, site type circuit that goes on, and where those races are, because there's so many happening right now. And most people don't know

there's a part one and part two of Europe, where there's actually a little break- Yep ... in meets in Europe for about three weeks, and then they go back

to like an August and a September finale. You know, i- it's, and so you need, that's why it's like important to have a coach who knows those things if

you don't have an agent, because they're gonna, nine times out of 10, be a liaison for you, who will know, okay, well,

you know, who knows the scheduling of events, of the European circuit, or the, you know, US road mile circuit in the summer, or the US road racing circuit in

the fall, and what that looks like, and all those types of things. So if you have someone in your corner who's knowledgeable on that, agent or coach, then you're

pretty well set up to help guide you. Um, you know, other

key things about agents are, you know, exactly that. Trying to get you into the right meets, or the right heat, so to speak, in the right meet. You know,

that's where that representation is of value, because you don't want to be the athlete that's wasting your time, 24 hours trying to get you in the right heat. You

want your coach or agent, you know, to worry about that for you so that you can just prepare mentally to compete in the r- the race you want to

compete in. So, but I mean, I know a lot of pacers that I work with for the meets I put on, you know, the, it's just I work right

with that athlete. You know, I don't go through the agent, 'cause they don't have an agent. You know, sometimes I do, but that's very, very few and far between,

especially domestically. Um, just because again, it's more about if you're a diamond league- Yeah ... level caliber of athlete, then it really warrants an agent. Or if you're not

a track athlete, and you're a road athlete. If you're a consistent top five US athlete on the American road circuit, then that will warrant those things. But the meet

director most times, if there are funding opportunities available for travel or hotel, you just emailing them or contacting them, you know, nine times out of 10 will be just

as effective as say, the agent doing it as well. And that's, so, you know, it's one of those things. I have a lot of good friends who are agents,

and they do great jobs. But you just, you don't want to waste their time, and you won't want your time wasted, um, by having a third party that you

have to constantly communicate with, or have communicate to you, when you could just close the loop yourself, and figure, and figure it out. So again, it's, and one of

those things, again, like gear or shoe contracts, it's this point of validity that if you have an agent, and then you have some type of little equipment stipend, or

equipment deal, or a sponsorship, you know, kit deal or something, it makes you feel more validated. But honestly, I always tell people, "It's not about the shoes. It's about

what you do in them." Yep. No, that's a good point. And you, and you know, we need, we just need to remember that. Leo Manzano is really good, and

he was really good when he was Nike. He was really good when he was unsponsored, and he's really good when he's with Hoka. You know? And those companies are

more benefiting from their association with him, than necessarily his association with them. Yeah. And that's what you have to look at, is what type of partnership are you having

with your sponsors? Is it, are you primarily benefiting from them? Because if that's the case, you're probably not gonna be sponsored by them for a long time. Because what

they're looking for is they're looking for benefit of their association sponsorship of you. You know, and talking about

sponsorships too, you know, maybe I like to give the people what they want, and keep it 100 as they say, and just get really real, and, you know, talk

some real dollars and real cents here. Um, you know, the average post-collegiate

makes a year from competing is $14,500 in the US. Yep.

And if you put that in perspective, that is far below the poverty line. You know? Yep. I mean, me and you both could go down the list, and name

athletes who are NCAA champions, or, uh, you know, have all these accolades behind their name who aren't making that much. Or who came out of co- college, and didn't

make that much. I think what people need to realize in the world of track is it's a very dichotomous system, right? If you're the very best of the world,

if you're the Usain Bolts of the world, yeah, you make good money. Okay. But as you go down that list, it drops off very, very heavily, and very, very

quickly.

Um,

if you think you're coming out of college and gonna make a nice expensive sum, I think you're, you're deluding yourself to a degree. And I think that's, not to

be discouraging, but I think that's the reality you have to know you're getting into.

Yeah. Ex- i- that i- it's it has to be a conscious choice. They need someone to tell you that. I mean, most people are like, "Man, a good deal,

like a good, good contract is a $10,000 a year base contract with some gear, you know, and travel. A small travel stipend of like maybe two grand. And then

heavily laced with bonus incentives for time bonuses or placing bonuses at certain US championships." So you know, I always tell people, "If you're winning, it will all take care

of itself." But you have all these people com- you know, training to win the same things, because there's all this incentive on the line, whether it's prize money from

that race, you know, bonus, bonuses in their contracts. I mean, I know athletes who, you know, will run a time for 1500, and if, you know, 100th of a

second is the difference between, you know, no bonus and a $5,000 bonus- Yep ... um, for them. And as a coach, you know, you have to be very aware

of that if you're working with that type of athlete, or have a coach who is very aware of that, and know, you know, how important that is. So again,

it's a lot more business oriented, um, if you're trying to solely depend on just running to pay your bills. Like you have to be very, very good, and very,

very fast consistently throughout the year. And that's why you see people go, you know, race indoor, and race heavily indoor. And you're like, "Huh, I don't... Why is that?

Why are they doing that?" "That doesn't make sense." Well, it makes dollars and cents. So that's why they're doing it.

You know? Yeah. 'Cause especially for that track only athlete, like that 800 meter person. Yep. That, that true, true, true miler. You only get about, you know, you only

can run around in circles for so long. Now a distance runner who can do cross, who can do roads, who can do track, who has, and marathons, who has

a lot more diverse portfolio, you can run year-round and have opportunities to make money year-round. But after September, you know, there's a big- Yep ... uh, opportunity for revenue

that does not exist for the majority of track and field athletes. And so you really gotta hustle from January to September while the ovals are open, otherwise you're gonna

be sitting there come Christmas and not be able to buy anyone any presents- ... 'cause you won't have any money.

Yeah, you know, I, I think that's something that, since we're on contracts, that, that people don't really understand. I mean, I've, I've had athletes who I've guided, who w-

we have picked certain races, race distances, because we knew their, they could hit their bonus structure easily there, right? Mm-hmm. Yep. And it's like, "Well, if we do this,

this race distance, like I'm very confident you can hit this bonus, and it'll bump your, your yearly salary up, you know, $5,000 or $7,000." Yep. And that's a big

deal. So it, it's sometimes it's like, "Well, you know, maybe we, we want you to race this, but you know what? We gotta knock this out, because this will

allow you to live." Right. So. Yes, exactly. And allow you to fight another day, or fight another year. Yeah. I mean, I know athletes who win a race or

win a couple thousands of dollars and, you know, that allows them to train for another year, because they w- won five, six grand extra. And you know, that's the

harsh reality is 'cause most Am- American distance and middle distance runners are very intelligent human beings, and could be making, you know, six figures working on Wall Street as

engineers, or as, you know, physical therapists. And yet they choose this, you know, kinda vow of poverty essentially. To chase this dream. And which I'm all for. I mean,

I support it. As a coach, I support it. I ch- chased it, the dream myself for two and a half years, making 10 to $15,000 a year with no

health insurance, fresh out of college. I get it. I did it. You know, but I gave myself a, a deadline, and I said, "If I'm not X, Y, Z

good by this y- day and this year, then I'm gonna walk away from being an athlete and get into something else." And that was coaching and meet administration. But,

um, you know, the, the reality is you have to, I think any intelligent athlete has to give themself a, uh, deadline to get certain results. Otherwise, if you just

keep chasing it and keep chasing it, you'll drive yourself crazy, and you'll drive yourself into p- ab- abject poverty as well. So I mean, it's like being an artist.

There's so much passion and emotion, and you can create this, uh, you know, performance that is something you'll remember for the rest of your life, and might bring value

to other people. But then at the same time too, you have to be very honest about you probably, 99% of you, o- of the athletes out there, are not

gonna get rich off of being a professional track and field athlete. And it sucks. I wish it wasn't like that right now. Uh, but it, it's, it's the reality

of it. Um- Yep ... it...

And again, most people are just hustling to do what they can to live. I mean, I know, again, people who look very professional, who look like they're a part

of some of the bigger clubs, or bigger, you know, heavily sponsored groups. I know people, guys who have, you know, turned down $30,000, $40,000 contracts to just be with

this club and in this group for fr- for nothing, on the, the promise that if you run really fast, you'll get a bigger deal down the road, which sometimes

works in their favor, sometimes doesn't. So it's, it's one of those things, it's like, you know, just because you

are with a certain shoe company or, or not, it doesn't necessarily guarantee you're gonna get the best deal. Some shoe companies might have a lot more leverage, and might

be a lot more res- um, respected, or much more desirable, and people will You don't wanna go with them instead of a, a newer startup company that's offering you

twice as much. And y- you know, I, I always tell people that I work with or who are, um, you know, thinking about coming and moving to Poland, it's

like, "Look, this is gonna be hard. This is gonna be tough. This is not something you're gonna, like, make money off of. You know, f- I, I'm, you know,

I'm just as good a coach as any other post-collegiate coach out there 'cause we're all really good coaches. That's why we're coaching high level post-collegiates, otherwise no one would

work with us and everyone would be hurt. You know, so there's not much variation or differentiation there. You know, if you like my style, if you like who I

am, great, great, great. But, you know, it's just you gotta understand this is really, really tough." And nine times out of 10, I scare people away.

Nine times out of 10. But- They just like, they, they flee ... y- y- you know, but it, you know, it's funny 'cause I do the same thing, and,

and I always give that speech, and, you know, even with people I work with who aren't from Houston or even more so, people who are coming to Houston, um,

to train because it is tough. But I think that reality is when you do that, like you get the ones, you almost self, uh, self-select and get the ones

who are gonna be able to do it for the right reasons and stick around. Um, but I, I, I think a lot of times is, is that reality is

never approached because it's, it's always you're the best athlete. Like, you're the best athlete coming out of the NCAA or coming out of your conference. So you're always not

coddled, but you're always, always that star, and no one really tells you the reality of what this sport is about until

you have to essentially learn it for yourself. So I think, you know, in the grand scheme of things, maybe that's the point of this podcast, is to give you

some of that reality, and it... whether that's from a contract- contractual standpoint, and whether it's to realize that, yeah, there's also reductions in, in a lot of companies', uh,

contracts, which are pretty vicious, and- Mm-hmm ... can turn your life from, "Hey, I'm making it," to, "Oh my God, how am I gonna last the next six m-

six months?" Yeah. Um, but those realities are there, and I think the bigger point of it is not to scare people off, but it's to realize, it's to make

people realize, just as you did when you were, you gave yourself that two and a half years, just as I did when I gave myself those two years during

grad school, is it's like this is gonna be tough.

Make sure you know what you're getting into, okay? And do it for the right reasons, and have the right process, and do your best at setting yourself up to

be able to succeed in the system. And if you don't, be okay walking away from it. Right. Exactly. I, I couldn't agree more. I mean, what I always tell

people is you want to enjoy the process. I mean, 'cause the process is where all the memories are gonna be made. And, you know, you earn your victories now

in the summer, in the off-season when you're not racing, when you're preparing. If you're not willing to sacrifice

and really focus now and earn the victory,

y- then, you know, by the time you get to indoor track and outdoor track next year in 2016, it's gonna be tough 'cause it's Olympic cycle, and everyone gets

the ghost of saying, "Oh man, I wanna make the Olympic trials or try and make the Olympics." And people come out of the woodwork. And I have to remind

pe- people it's very, very tough to be the top 30 best person in the nation at what you do, and that's essentially what it is at the Olympic trials,

right? They take the top 30 best people in each event to compete to be, to represent the US to be one of the top three. And as you kind

of go up that mountain, and the altitude gets higher and higher and higher, and there's just less oxygen to breathe, it gets a lot tougher, and those, you know,

of weak heart and those of, you know, who just don't re- aren't really up to the formidableness of the challenge tend to back down or tend to find a

cop-out or tend to just, you know, uh, dissolve very rapidly.

I mean, y- y- y- it's just you gotta understand the weight of what you're doing, especially moving from collegiate sector to the post-collegiate sector. I mean, you have division

two, division three, division one, NAIA. Four different divisions of competitiveness for a collegiate. So you can be a multiple time All-American at D2 or NAIA or be a national

champ at that, and that's great. But it doesn't always guarantee that then you're gonna be at the US trials or the US championships the following year. Yeah. And I've

even seen NCAA division one champions, like who are nowhere to be found the following year, and who had these big, great contracts, and oh my gosh, everything's well taken

care of. And for whatever reason, it shows you just how really hard it is. They're training at such a high level. There's just so much on the line. It

can be very, very tough, and you see that with a lot of runners who are very cyclical. You know, last year no, you know, didn't, weren't really competitive. This

year, oh my God, super competitive. And the people who are consistently competitive and consistently competing at a high level, those are very few and far between, and they're really

the exception rather than the rule because of just how tough it is to be competitive on the US scene nowadays as a post-collegiate middle distance and distance runner. Yep.

Exactly. I mean, if I, if I could sum it up for people who

might look into it is, is look at those athletes who have done it year in and year out, and see what they're doing right and what they're doing with

their environment. I mean, we've named a couple on this podcast. Will Lear is a great example. Um, Leo Manzano is a great example. Uh, you know, on the women's

side, Katie Mackey's always in the hunt. Gabe- Oh, yeah ... Grunewald's always in the hunt. Like, those people who are always there year after year, and might not, they

might break through, they might not, but they're always there. That's probably the hardest thing to do. Yeah. Because if you go back and look, you'll see people rise, you'll

see people fall, you'll see people disappear. And our sport is very cutthroat to always be e- even one of those top 30 who make it to the US Champs,

like Wizo has, you know- Mm-hmm ... for the past seven or eight years. That's incredibly difficult. Yes. So

Yes. Like, it, it is insanely difficult to be that consistent, because our sport is crazy- Right ... with everything. So it's, it's... I think it's look at those athletes

who consistently do that as a model to see, like, "All right, how am I going to do this?" Right. Um,

yeah. And I always tell people, like, the one question you need to ask yourself getting into this is, are you willing to put in a lot of work, maybe

a lot of sacrifice, to blow people's minds? And are you gonna be okay if you don't- Yep ... for whatever reason? Like, if you're really not process oriented, if

you're really result oriented, this might not be the thing to pursue for the next several years of your life. Right. But if the process, if every day is like,

w- you know, in a married situation, if you're working part time at a running shoe store or have an internship or at a company or working at a coffee

shop, but if you wake up every day and you're jacked to train and it's like Christmas and you're pumped because either you have a great coach, a great environment,

a great support network, a great post-collegiate team to work with, you have some things that get you excited every single day through the drudgery, and you keep top of

mind that your end game is to blow people's minds by doing something really special and something, "Whoa, whoa. Oh my God, where did this person come from out of

nowhere? Oh my goodness." If that's what you're go- going after, you're gonna, you know, at least have a better opportunity and a better chance of being successful than the

people who are worrying about, "Oh, how much am I making? Am I... What shoe company do I... Am I sponsored by? Oh, my, my contract's this. Oh, this and

that." Those stuff become distractions really quickly. Um, but they're vital necessities in order to be able to do this. So you just gotta figure out what situation's best for

you, and have a lot of people in your corner to counsel you, um, you know, very honestly about that. And then just remember why you love doing it. I

mean, so many athletes I talk to, "Oh, I just love running. I just love training. I just love competing." And hold onto that near dear and tight, but also,

too, just understand the caliber of excellence at this level is just so much more high than anything you've ever experienced, whether you're an NCAA champion, NCAA record holder, you

know, or, uh, some guy in your cross country team.

Uh, y- you just... The weight of it has to be communicated. And if someone's not communicating it that way to you or it hasn't been communicated to you, hopefully

this podcast episode has done that. Because we just, we... Again, we're not here to crush dreams. We're just here to give you a big s- spanking on the butt

and just say, "Hey, this is reality."

That, that's about it, man. I- I don't think I can end it any, any better than that. So, um, yeah. Hope- hopefully that does it. As, as Jon said,

it's, it's not about crushing dreams. It's about making sure people know what they're getting into. But beyond that is making sure people have this nice foundation of understanding of

why they're doing it. Okay? I think that's... The biggest thing you said was, like, you have to know why you're enjoying this sport and what makes it tick for

you and what makes you tick and why you keep doing it. And you have to keep that in mind, because so many people, I tell, I think sometimes get

jaded and lose that. And that's when things go wrong. Yeah. Like, you have to remember why you're doing it. And for the vast, vast majority of people, it's not

to get rich. No.

Art, art really is about getting rich. I mean- Exactly ... I just remind people that art is really about- I, I, I mean, coaching isn't either. I mean, that's

why- No ... why we're in this too. We're not, we're not in it to get rich. I'm sure both of us- Yes ... with our educations could be doing,

uh, much, much more, uh, productive, or not productive, but, uh,

wealth wise, um, money- Yes ... making jobs Much more lucrative. Yes ... lucrative jobs. Thanks. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, we're... Essentially we're, we're teachers as coaches, and

athletes are artists, and it's a relationship of teachers and artists. And teaching is very intrinsically rewarding. Being an artist is intrinsically r- very rewarding. And the reality is, things

that are highly intrinsically rewarding often pay very, very little. So

Very, very true. Well- Yes ... we'll, we'll end it with that. Well, thanks a lot, Jon. Okay. Um, good chatting as always. Yes. All right. Until next time, everybody.

Yep. Thanks a lot.